Four Seasons Hotel

Anchalee Ponrungsit, Madison chef & Supanut Khanarak (Ann), Spice Market chef

Can you tell me about your background and how you got here?
Anchalee: I was a trainee at Regent, Bangkok [currently Four Seasons]. I started in the bakery for two and a half years; then I decided to work outside and come back again in 2000. I worked in Biscotti five years ago and my position moved up and I was promoted to junior sous chef at Madison. After one year I got promoted to Chef de Cuisine.
Ann: I graduated from Hospitality, specialty in Western food. But I didn’t like it. I then moved to Sydney to study more. Then one day I just found myself to love Thai food so then I started cooking and training in Sydney. I lived there for eight years, studying and cooking and working, and then I moved back to Bangkok. First I went to the Metropolitan Hotel and then moved to be a Head Chef in Four Seasons, Thai cuisine.

Why do you think there more women chefs now than before?
Anchalee: I think in Thailand, it’s the culture. In the last ten or hundred years, not many women were working. But now there are more opportunities for women. But some women don’t like to cook much because they have to work like office hours. All the chefs have to work hard and our restaurant opens for 12 to 14 hours. It’s hard being a woman chef because you’re standing there for hours and hours.
Ann: 14-15 hours. It depends on the guest and it depends on the job. We have to be flexible.

Are you the only women in your kitchens?
Ann: Spice Market is all women. No men in the kitchen. In total there are 10.
Anchalee: Same, it’s 10 but we have two women. It’s mostly male because in Madison, there are a lot of things to do that’s more difficult. Some guys have more power to do steaks and grill. You have a fire, it’s a hot kitchen.

Was it challenging at the start, to be in a kitchen full of men?
Anchalee: It was challenging at first. I just thought – how can I control them? Because first when I came here, there were no women, just men. It’s not too easy when I’m female and everyone else is male. How can I get them to trust me?

Is it easier for you, Chef Ann, being in a kitchen full of women?
Ann: Not really. I didn’t think I could become a chef in Four Seasons because I didn’t think I was good enough at the time. And then I tried to improve myself, my management skills, and my skills in the kitchen. It took two years until they accepted me. It was a bit hard and a little emotional and they were aggressive when working. But after we talked more openly and knew how we wanted to work with each other, we work like sisters. [We’re] not bossy and we have fun all the time. Now it’s become smooth; it’s very good teamwork.
Anchalee: Spice Market has only lady chefs and sometimes I hear a lot of gossip. They talk too much. But Madison is lucky because a lot of the men forget it.

What did your family think about you becoming a chef?
Ann: I think they never knew how I like to cook because they wanted me to do something else. I should be not cooking.

What did they want you to do?
Ann: Maybe a lawyer or architect. Sorry!

Were they shocked when they found out that you’re cooking?
Ann: I think when I became a head chef and they saw me on TV, they said they’re very proud of me.
Anchalee: For me it’s not so difficult because my family is from the countryside. When I was a child, I dreamed of being a nurse, but I was also always cooking with my grandmother. Now when they [see me on] TV like Chef Ann said, they’re proud.

How did you become interested in Western food, rather than Thai food?
Anchalee: Thai food, yes I can cook. But I wanted to know how to do like European food. It’s challenging to do European food or steakhouse because it’s not easy to do. Now I can do it and it made me so happy.

How do you think your diners feel when they know you’re a woman? Do you think that they are surprised?
Ann: I think it’s very good feedback when they saw that there’s a woman chef in the restaurant.
Anchalee: They don’t know that we have a woman chef in the restaurant. When they come to talk to us, they’re surprised [when they find out] it’s a female chef. And the guest is very excited because in the steakhouse, it’s normally a male chef.

Do you think having a head chef as a woman is better in any way?
Anchalee: It’s mixed. Some stations need females and some jobs need males because some are hard jobs which can’t be given to women. We look at the job first, because if you work in like a banquet, for example, the banquet is hard work. We cannot give work like this to the lady because there’s big pots, big pans.

Do you have any cooking idols?
Ann: My inspiration is David Thompson. He’s why I do Thai cooking. How can he cook Thai food so beautifully?
Anchalee: Chef Alberto Gianati is my cooking idol. He’s a very strong chef and I learned a lot from him, like how to manage the team. He’s a very good chef.

Any female cooking idols?
Anchalee: Christine Manfield is a very good chef. She’s from Australia.

What do you think of the stereotype that women do pastry and men do cooking? Is that true in your experience?
Ann: For me, in Thai food, women do the Thai desserts. There aren’t many men who do Thai desserts.
Anchalee: In the steakhouse, it’s very hard work. There’s a lot of the fire in the grill station; maybe some ladies don’t like it because when you cook, your face is not like a freshy. And there’s the smell of the oils, smell of the smoke.

Do you have anything to add?
Ann: If anyone would like to become a chef, you have to be proud and trust yourself. If you trust yourself then you can do it.

Sra Bua by Kiin Kiin, Siam Kempinski Hotel

Pavita Saechao (Anne), Chef de Cuisine

Can you please tell me about your background and how you got here? Did you go to culinary school? Or if not, how did you get your training?
I finished Food and Nutrition at university. Then I came to work in the hotel. First I worked in the bakery and after two years I moved to the Thai kitchen, like traditional Thai kitchen. And then I moved to Four Season to do Thai traditional cooking. One day, Chef Ian brought me to New York to open a restaurant and then he taught me how to cook Thai modern. After six years, I came back to Thailand to cook in Sra Bua.

Do you have any cooking idols?
My mom.

Are you the only woman in the kitchen?
No, I have four [women]. We have 11 people [in total].

What does it feel like to be a woman in the kitchen?
We’re treated equally. I treat everyone the same.

What did your family think about you becoming a chef?
They thought it was unbelievable. Because I never cook at home. But they know I like to eat and I like to learn with my mum; my mum taught me to make chili paste. That’s why I like to cook Thai food.

How do you think your diners feel when they know you’re a woman?
Some are surprised, but some of them know already. Some of them have read about me, and then some are like ‘Oh, I didn’t know there’s a girl working here.’ But they’re not really surprised because most of our diners aren’t Thai. Foreigners know about women chefs because there’s a lot in the US and Europe.

In Thailand, why do you think that there were less women chefs before and more now?
I think it’s because the world has opened. Women can decide on anything like men and women can also work hard like men. First they did not speak English, so they weren’t able to spread knowledge about Thai cuisine. Thai cuisine first came from the palace and women worked in the palace. The culture then was that women are shy, and they didn’t understand English well like we do now. They didn’t have much education then and right now it’s changed.

What do you think of the stereotype that women do pastry and men do cooking? Has that been true in your experience?
In my kitchen, I just rotate the people every three months. I don’t get them to stay in one station. So the guys can make desserts and the girls can cook in the hot line. I want the people to learn everything, not like guys can only work in the hot line and girls only desserts.

Does gender play a role in how you do your job?
In my kitchen, no. [Being a woman] doesn’t affect me. We just work together and cook professionally, and we understand and support each other. I think women can do everything. Girls and guys are [now] the same. Our work is the same but some situations are different, like lifting heavy things. If you open your mind and you’re professional enough and do not have a problem and you share ideas, we can work together.

Do you have anything to add?
I never think that men or women are different. People ask me what I think about me being a woman chef. For me, I never think about that. Maybe I just saw a lot of women chefs in the US. And when I worked there, I was the leader and the others were guys, and I can just give them orders. I don’t see us as men or women. I see myself as a working person, I see myself as part of the team. I just feel like I’m a working person who can work with anyone, male or female. In the end, it’s teamwork. In my kitchen, there’s no saying who you are. You are one in the Sra Bua team. I’ve never thought that women are the best or men are the best. Although women may pay slightly more attention to detail and men may be stronger; if we bring these two qualities together then our work will be perfect.

Fat Fish Seafood Bistro

Saranya Makinson (Pook) and Shirley Tangkaravakun, chef owners.

Can you tell me about your backgrounds and how you got here?
Shirley: We went to culinary school together.
Pook: At Le Cordon Bleu, that’s how we met. And we weren’t actually planning to have a restaurant but we came across this site just two years later and we thought it would be a good thing to do, particularly [because] we both like to do things together already.

How was your experience at culinary school?
Pook: It was a lot of fun. It was very, very stressful but I knew it was coming. It was really tough but it was challenging. Every day was a test and yeah it was tough but it was definitely an extremely good experience.

Were there a lot of female students?
Shirley: There were both men and women.
Pook: To start off with, a lot. And in the end there were just two of us left in the class.

How does it feel to be the only two women left?
Pook: We’re sort of used to it by then.
Shirley: If you didn’t ask this question, we wouldn’t notice before that there were only two of us left in the class.
Pook: Yeah, that’s right. Because we were just so focused about what we were doing, we’ve come this far. Shame that [the other women] weren’t there. But it’s not the sort of place where you help each other or be girly about it anyway.

Were the teachers male or female?
Shirley: All of them male.

Did they treat you any differently from the other male students?
Pook: No, I don’t think so.

Do you have any cooking idols or chefs you look up to?
Pook: Tom Kitchin, he’s a Scottish guy. I love the look of his food and his attitude.
Shirley: For me, Nobu’s chef. He’s Japanese and he became successful in America.

Any female chef idols?
Pook: She writes cookbooks but she’s not a cook. You know Delia Smith? Her cookbook is great and everything, if you read her cookbook it will guarantee you success. She’s almost a chef, really.

What were you doing before you came to have your own restaurant?
Pook: I was in consulting. Basically working in the corporate world.
Shirley: I had my own business. Export, import. Trading Company.

Did you know you wanted to be a chef then?
Pook: I always cook for people, and somebody always said to me, “Pook, I’m sure one day you will have a restaurant.” I thought, “Yeah, maybe.”

When did you start?
Shirley: Just three years after Cordon Bleu. We went to school in 2008.
Pook: We were already 35-36.

Is there a reason we see fewer women executive sous chefs at hotels? It seems like a lot of women chefs have their own restaurants.
Pook: I think it’s the stress and the pressure that mainly a lot of women can’t handle. And even if they’re really good and can handle that, there are still family issues. Every woman wants to have a family, so at some point they’re going to have to choose. And most of them, instinctively, would rather have a home than spend late hours and late nights. As for the ones who have their own restaurants, it’s a women’s thing to want to cook and see people eat and be happy.
Shirley: But I think things are starting to change. I see from the magazines that there are more and more young women becoming chefs. That’s a good thing.

Why do you think there are more women chefs now than before?
Pook: I think because their career has become more well-known as a more respectable career. And maybe they see other successful women chefs that they could be.

Are you the only women in the kitchen?
Shirley: [We have] two girls in the kitchen.
Pook: Actually when we started the restaurant, we had all boys apart from that one girl. They were very tough, she cried every day. [Our situation was] a bit better because we own the place.
Shirley: But now she’s the best in the kitchen.
Pook: Yeah. She just got bullied. She just makes a little mistake and the guy in charge at the time just screamed at her. Sometimes I would hear it and it’s so unnecessary. He was always quite mean to her because from his experience, [he thinks] you should be tough, working in a kitchen. So he tried to introduce that culture to her. I don’t know how she managed, and in the end, I think they’re best friends.

What did your family think about you becoming a chef?
Shirley: They’re proud of us?
Pook: They must be, yes. Because they’re always amazed when we produce some food, particularly to them it’s foreign.
Shirley: I don’t think they believe that we’d make it this far.

How do your diners feel when they know you’re women? Are they surprised?
Pook: Yeah, sometimes they ask “You’re the chef? You own the place?”
Shirley: Only some. They’re surprised that we’re still young and have our own restaurant. And we have to tell them that we’re not that young.

Do you think there are ways in which women can handle things better in the kitchen, compared to men?
Pook: Yeah, I think maybe in terms of keeping stuff together? I’m not sure. But I really don’t think being nasty to people in the kitchen is necessary, and I think women can do that better. Because you understand and you’re more sensitive, so you might be able to sort of make people work well together than just scold at them and be mean to them all the time which a lot of chefs still do. [In terms of cleanliness], males are good. It’s not like we are cleaner than they are. They are clean as anything.

Can you think of a time when your being a woman became an issue?
Pook: A lot of the time I cannot say what I think because maybe it might insult somebody, and if it’s a man, it’ll just make it worse. In an environment that’s full of men, even if I know that what they were talking about is wrong, I’m not going to jump in and say ‘Look, this is wrong and I know it’s right.’ But if I’m the guy, I think I could say that. Sometimes I feel bad if I have to say some bad things to the boys. I still find that I have to be quite careful of what I say. [If I’m not careful] they might feel insulted because I’m a woman. I have no proof but I think it’s by nature. And something that doesn’t help being women working in a stressful environment is that we do have our ups and downs, our hormones, our emotions - and you can’t have that in the kitchen. So I think that’s another hard part, to start and climb and be consistently good.
Shirley: For me, I talk straightforwardly. If they did something wrong, I tell them right away and speak with reason, not emotion. And they’re quite understanding.

There seems to be a stereotype that women do pastry and men do cooking. Has that been true in your experience?
Pook: Yeah, in Cordon Bleu it was a bit like that. Only women that do the cooking, the cuisine section, are sort of more tough -
Shirley: More tough, like us.
Pook: And the other ones, the really cute, sweet, girly and soft-spoken ones, they all do [pastry]. And I think pastry is like art, it’s like doing some knitting or something. I don’t even know if I can do it.
Shirley: Even [for the female staff] here, when she got better at her job, I asked her to stand in front of the stove, and she tried to avoid it because it’s too hot. So she prefers to do salads or things like that.
Pook: A lot of girls say it’s too hot in front of the stove - don’t want to do it, it’s too hot, it’s too quick, it’s too much adrenaline. And guys like that.

Do you have anything to add?
Pook: I don’t think women should be discouraged by being surrounded by men. Some men might have a bit of issues with ego but that’s their problem. If you want to do anything for yourself, just go for it.